A Ritual Abuse Expert? Does Susan Kelly Manipulate Children?
Transcript of a Clinical Interview by Susan Kelly 1984
This describes the interview and accusation by one of the state's star witnesses in the Fells Acres prosecutions.
[Names of children have been changed in the interview text. Otherwise all citations are verbatim from the transcript of the "clinical" interview.]
Jane had graduated from Fells Acres in June of 1983, at age 5. In September of 1984, after talking to police, her mother asked her about a magic room, a secret room, and a clown. In December Jane's mother called the police again and told them she had asked her daughter about the magic room, her daughter initially denied its existence, but the next morning told her there was a magic room and the clown did tricks in it. Although her daughter would not tell her anything more about the magic room, she remained unconcerend until December when she said she read an article listing the symptoms of sexual abuse and felt her daughter had at least eight of them. By the time the trials started, the severity of the symptoms as remembered by Janes mother had increased, with new ones such as nightmares about clowns appearing.
Within a few days they took their daughter to Susan Kelley, the state's consultant. In spite of repeated badgering:
Q: What about -- tell me the other things April said about the clown. She said that you -- that Jane and April -- you girls -- the clown had you girls take your clothes off in the magic room?
A: No, she's lying.
Q: She's lying? Why would she lie about something like that, do you think, Jane?
A: We didn't do that.
Q: Who did? Did somebody?
and
Q: When April was talking to me today I thought she -- I really believed her, Jane, that that happened, because she told me all about it and she even told me what the clown said.
A: What was it?
Q: What do you think it was? Are you sure you don't want to talk about it?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you scared to talk about it?
A: No.
After arriving home, Jane's mother called the police to tell that while driving home, her daughter started sobbing. When Jane's father left the car for a few minutes to pick up a paycheck Jane told her mother that the clown would kill them all because she talked. After some coaxing Jane described being abused by the clown named Saasha.
Prosecutors insisted that Jane's outburst could only be caused by the fear of the clown and the Amiraults. Perhaps they did not notice this segment of a second interview by Susan Kelley a couple of weeks after the disclosure: [p. 97-98, transcript]
Q: Last time you were her talking to me and your mom said that you got in the car with her and you were a very good girl and you told her and daddy some things about the clown that upset -- made you mad? [p. 97-98]
A:: I don't talk to my daddy.
Q:: No? Why not?
A:: He'll scream?
Q:: He'll scream?
A:: He screamed -- he screamed outside.
Q:; He did? Wo'd he scream at?
A:: Me.
Q:: You?
A: Not me. He sad, "You (inaudible)." I live in Malden.
Q:: You live in Malden, yes. Well, I'm sure daddy wasn't mad at you...
Susan Kelley immediately assumed that the screaming was in response to
A: disclosure, even though the disclosure was made to the mother when the father was not present. Could the screaming be about her failure to disclose? This question did not appear to enter into the investigators minds.
The prosecution insists (and Jane and her mother testified) that Gerald threatened to kill them if they talked. They further claimed that the child would not spontaneously make up a story of a threat to enforce secrecy. However when one listens to the child in the interview we hear [p. 123]
Q: Why did he say he would kill your mother and father and you?
A:: And my brother and my sister. Well, he wanted to.
Q:: Why did he want to, Jane?
A:: Cause we didn't stay in the magic room.
Did the investigator's overlook the possibility that the "I will kill you threat" had been part of Jane's normal vocabulary learned from parents and schoolmates? Does this appear in her first interview she tells Susan Kelley "I just said, 'April, be quiet, before I kill you,'" in describing
A: conversation that occured with her friend in the magic room. -------------- Below is a much longer set of excerpts from Susan Kelley's first interview with Jane.
[Jane (name changed) is a six year old girl who had not been at the school for about 18 months when this interview took place.] She made no disclosures during the interview]
Q:Did you have a good Christmas?
A: Yes, I got a lot of stuff.
Q:You did? Will you tell me what you got?
A: I got Barbie clothes and Crystal Barbie and (inaudible) Barbie and Skipper and a lot of stuff and I got crayons.
Q:You did get a lot. You must have been a good girl this year, is that true? Good.
A: Mommy bought me tennis rackets.
Q:You've got fingernail polish on; you're quite the grown up girl?
A: I scraped it.
Q:How old are you, Jane?
A: Six.
Q:You're six years old? How do you spell your first name?
A: J-...
Q: Oh, so your full name is Jane? What would you like me to call you, Jane or Jane?
A: Jane.
Q:Jane, that's a pretty name for a pretty girl.
A: That's the name of my last name, Jane Sara Sanderson.
Q:Oh, Sara's your middle name, that's so pretty.
A: Because my mommy named me it when I was a baby.
Q: Do you remember when you were a baby? Of course not, it's so long ago, you're so grown up now. Did your mommy tell you a little bit about me, why you came here to talk to me? No? Well, my name's Susan Kelly and I'm a nurse and my job is to talk to children and to see how they're doing and to help protect children.
A: My mo~my is a nurse, too.
Q: Your mommy is a nurse, too? Does she work in a hospital?
A: She quit.
Q: She quit? Well, you know what nurses are and my job is a nurse for children and talking to children.
A: My mommy talks to big girls.
Q: She talks to big girls? Well, I talk mostly to little girls and boys.
A: All the time (inaudible) and I got a Cabbage Patch (inaudible).
Q: Oh, nice. I'm ~ust going to pull you a little closer, can you hold on? So I can hear you better. My i ob is to talk to all the children who went to Fells Acres Day Care School.
A: I did and my friend (inaudible).
Q:I know, I (inaudible) yesterday.
A: Who?
Q: April . April , (inaudible) and her mother and (inaudible). Did you know that she was coming here to talk to me?
A: Yes.
Q: She said to say hello to you. She really likes you.
A: Yes.
Q: She said you were her favorite friend there?
A: No, my cousin Laurie said that I hate April.
Q: Who hates April?
A: My cousin, Laurie.
Q: Did your cousin Laurie go to Fells Acres?
A: No.
Q: She didn't go to day care with you?
A: I don't know.
Q: April was such a big help today. She helped me so much because she told me all about Fells Acres Day Care School, and she knew it was okay to talk to me about it and I want you to know that it's okay to tell me about it, too.
A: Mommy said that, too.
Q: It's true, because my lob is to help you, and the only way I can help you and all the other children is if -- I ask you a lot of questions. Are you good at answering questions?
A: I was sick before.
Q:What was wrong?
A: I had a bad cough and threw up and all the time I slept on the couch and I had to do it in a pan.
Q: You had to throw up in the pan?
A: (inaudible) little cough and she had to take -- she had a bad feeling and she had to take medicine. I take pills because I had (inaudible).
Q: Did it hurt? Did you ever take any medicine when you went to Fells Acres?
A: No.
Q: Did the teachers ever give you any medicine?
A: (Inaudible).
Q: Do you remember who your teachers were there; can you name them for me?
A: I don't know.
Q:I bet you can name some of them. April named some for me.
A: Who was it?
Q:Well, she told me there were teachers named Miss Cheryl; do you remember Miss Cheryl.
A: Yes.
Q: So, you remember one of the teacher's names. so you remember some of the others?
A: There was Miss Cheryl in the papers, and (inaudible).
Q: Miss Cheryl was in the paper?
A: Yes. What was she in the paper for? Was Miss Cheryl nice to you?
A: All the time when we be bad we have to go up in the office.
Q:You had to go up in the office?
A: Where Tookie is.
Q:What happened in the office with Tookie?
A: April 's friend got screamed at.
Q:By who?
A: Tookie.
Q: He screamed at her?
A: No, one of her friends.
Q: One of her friends; was her friend upset when he screamed at her; did she feel bad?
A: April didn't, and she didn't -- she don't like her no more because she have a -- because she never went back in the room, and she was -- and all the time when they get something for Christmas, I (inaudible). And, I don't know that some kind of (inaudible).
Q: Oh, really?
A: And, I got a (inaudible). Great. Well, I'll tell you what, I'm going to start some of the questions now and see how you do, all right? I know you are going to do very well. Do you know what this is?
A: Clown.
Q: Yes, have you ever seen a clown before?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: I dressed up as it and my mommy (inaudible) my mommy was a clown and she brought me popcorn, and I k~ew because my mommy was like this because she had a little hat on and there was a little red nose and (inaudible) touched it and my mommy did "mmmm. n Then, when (inaudible) put it on (in~udible) and she said, "mmmm, mmmm, mmmm." (Inaudible)
Q: How about when you went to the day school? April told me about the clown and the magic room?
A: Yes.
Q: She told me about that and she told me that you knew about it, is that true?
A: Yes, I know about it, too.
Q: Do you think that you could help me the same way that April did by telling me the story about what happened with the clown in the magic room? What happened?
A: He took a (inaudible) and he pulled down some (inaudible).
Q: Then what happened?
A: And I ran and I picked it up; then I threw it to April, then she catched it; and then she threw it to her other friend and she threw it to her other friend, then to my friend; then all the way back to the (inaudible).
Q: That sounds like fun.
A: And I crumpled it up.
Q: April told me that there was a time that you and April were in the room with the clown by yourselves in the magic room, then she told me that something happened that you were scared and she was scared, too?
A: Yes, we were crying.
Q: You were crying?
A: Because we didn't like the clown. He scared us.
Q: What did he do that made you cry?
A: He did -- I think about. I think I was scared than April and he took -- made a fire on the wood and then he did this like this and he said, Mmm, mmm," and we ran.
Q: You ran, yes.
A: we ran around the room to get out the fire.
Q: You must have been scared. What else did the clown do that made you scared?
A: Nothing else, I guess. He got a toy light and was doing his stuff
Q: What stuff was he doing?
A: He was passing and throwing stuff.
Q: What kind of stuff was he passing?
A: He made fire out of the paper and you make a hat, then he rolled it--- then he put (inaudible) and he said, "(inaudible) fire in your head and a hat."
Q: I see. I'll tell you what; I'm going to ask you -- do you want me to ask you the same questions I asked April ? Okay, now when you -- I'll tell you what, why don't I ask you the questions and I'll show you -- I'll talk about my doll when we do it, okay? April , she was a little scared to talk to me but she talked to me and it was okay. And, she told me it was okay to talk to you too, okay? April says it's okay to talk to them -- to you -- all the time and she says maybe tomorrow or today we might go to you and we might go and talk to you and she said tomorrow we are. Yes, and that's today, right? April told me about the clown and that's why I'm going to ask you a few more questions about the clown, okay? Because April told me everything and now I want you to tell me too, okay? Because it's best that you both tell me. Could you tell me about if the clown ever take his clothes off in any way?
A: No.
Q: He didn't?
A: He was singing (inaudible) we hurt our head.
Q: Well, I'll-tell you what, see this picture of this -- this doll here?
A: Yes.
Q: All my dolls are very special dolls because they have all the body parts. They have private parts just like real children and real adults do. Do you know what I mean by, "Private parts"?
A: Feet, head, eyes, nose.
Q: But they have private parts too, like where people go to the bathroom. What do you call where you go to the bathroom, do you have a word for that?
A: No.
Q: What do you call it? Do you call it your peepee or your vagina, or what do you call that?
A: Nothing.
Q: You don't have a word?
A: No. My mommy calls my bumbum a cooly
Q: A cooly, that's a good word.
A: A cooly.
Q: A cooly? Well, I'll tell you what; this is a man doll and I'm going to take his clothes off, okay? I'm going to show you thi~ doll. Would you like to take the clothes off the little girl doll while I do this?
A: Okay, you haven't got (inaudible).
Q: Good,~you beat me. You're quicker. Now, Ann Marie told me all about what went when on in the magic room so ~
A: April?
Q: April , so I want you to tell me too, okay? See, this is -- do you know all the parts on the doll?
A: No.
Q: Let's see if you do; what's this?
A: Eyes.
Q: That's right, what's that?
A: Nose.
Q: Right, what's that?
A: Mouth.
Q: You're smart; what's this?
A: Arm.
Q: that 's right, what 's that?
A: Belly button. Q: That's right, what's that?
A: Peepee.
Q: That's right, what's this?
A: Feet.
Q: That's right. Now, could you tell me when you and April were in the room with the clown -- when you were in the magic room -- could you show me on this doll, what parts of the clown -- any part of the clown -- you saw?
A: I seen-a finger, an arm, a nose, and eyes and feet, and legs, everything. When he walked he fell and hurt his bum.
Q: He fell and hurt his bum? So, you saw his head; you said his eyes; you said you saw his arms; and what else?
A: His feet.
Q: How about his peepee?
A: No. April fell and her belt came undone and her pants fell down.
Q: Her pants came down, her clothes were off?
A: When she fell she said, "Oh, oh, Spaghettios, my pants fell down."[slightly gigling]
Q: What room was that in?
A: We'd color. I fell and I hurt my bum.
Q: Now, I'm goine to ask you one more time, okay Jane? And, I don't want you to be scared to tell me the answer, okay?
A: (Inaudible).
Q: Good, because you're doing a good job, you're being a big help. Now, could you tell me if the clown ever put his pants down when you were in the room with April and him?
A: No.
Q: Are you sure?
A: No.
Q: What do you think would happen if you told me, yes?
A: How about in the back of the doll?
Q: Inaudible) his back, his hair.
Q: That's right; what's this?
A His bum bum, cooly.
Q: His cooly, his bum bum. Now, did you ever see the cooly on the clown?
A: No.
Q: Well, I'll tell you what, we're going to put him aside over here for a while, okay? Now, how about this little girl? Now, she don't have her clothes on or off?
A: Off.
Q:That's right.
A: And her eyes.
Q: That's right.
A: Nose, arms, belly button, peepee
Q:That's right.
A: legs, feet.
Q:That's rieht.
A: Bum bum.
Q:That's right. Now, when you were at school at Fells Acres, did anyone take your clothes off?
A: No, (inaudLble) April (inaudible) in the classroom and changed.
Q:You did, yes.
A: Nobody helped Us, me and April- did it (inaudible). Did April tell you about that?
Q: Yes, April told me about going to the bathroom. But, you see there's something else that April told me about that I was a little worried.
A: What?
Q: Do you know what it was? Why don't you tell me what you think it was that she told me that I was a little worried about?
A: I don't know.
Q: She told me she was in the room with you and the clown and the clown did something that she didn't like.
A: What?
Q: Do you think you could tell me what it was?
A: I don't know.
Q:She said you were there?
A: I wasn't there. I was hiding because I took my -- I brang my little pillow and I put it over my head. I brought my pillow case and I put it over my head.
Q: Why did you do that, so you wouldn't see anything? WhAt didn't you want to see?
A: I didn't want to see the fire.
Q: Oh, the fire, yes.
A: And the towel cause he'll cover me with it and I'll fall on my bum bum. Hit my head, hit my eyes, hit my head and hit my lip and my nose.
Q: What about -- tell me the other things April said about the clown. She said that you -- that Jane and April -- you girls -- the clown had you girls take your clothes off in the magic room? [Girl suddenly develops a puzzled or surprised look on her face].
A: No, she's lying.
Q:She's lying? Why would she lie about something like that, do you think, Jane?
A: We didn't do that.
Q: Who did? Did somebody?
A: Her friend did. [Jane starts playing with her turtleneck sweater and pulls the neck part over her mouth and talks through the shirt.]
Q: Which friend?
A: Justin.
Q: Justin? What happened with Justin?
A: He got a spanking by the clown.
Q: He got a spanking by the clown? Were his pants on or off when he got the spanking?
A: He had his clothes on and he give him a spanking.
Q: When April was talking to me today I thought she -- I really believed her, Jane, that that happened, because she told me all about it and she even told me what the clown said.
A: What was it?
Q: What do you think it was? Are you sure you don't want to talk about it?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you scared to talk about it?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm taking my shoes off.
Q: You want to take your shoes off to be more comfortable? Have you talked to April since she came here today, to talk to me?
A: She wasn't over.
Q: She wasn't over?
A: She was over, but nobody talked to her (inaudible).
Q: Well, what do you think I should do then to help April , because I was a little worried about it today?
A: When are we going again?
Q: Going where?
A: Here.
Q: I don't know, did you want to come here again?
A: (Inaudible).
Q: Well, there was something else that April told me about clown.
A: Clown? Is that a girl one?
Q: I don't know, what do you think?
A: Boy.
Q: Was the clown you saw at Fells Acre a boy clown or a girl clown?
A: Girl.
..... p. 73
Q: She said that you had your picture taken?
A: Where?
Q:When you dins't have clothes on?
A: No, I kept mine on. (Inaudible) April.
Q: Did she take hers off?
A: No.
Q: She wonldn't be in trouble. I don't care. I mean, I care for her, but she didn't do anything bad.
A: I didn't either. I said to April -- I don't know what hurt her when she was over my house last night... ...
Q: ... That's why we're talking ot the kids, so they can help us. So, what did you say to April when she had her clothes off at Fells Acre?
A: Did she tell you about that?
Q: Yes.
A: Her's off?
Q: Yes, she told me about it. Did you say anything to her?
A: Not that much.
Q: What did you say?
A: Nothing.
Q: Nothing?
A: I just said "April, be quiet, before I kill you." .....
p. 77
Q: Did you ever see April without her clothes on?
A: I didn't see her. Bum bum, (Inaudible)>
Q: Why are you putting the finger in the bum bum? Did somebody put their finger in your bum bum?
A: No, I always do that. (Inaudible)
Q: You do? Why do you always do that?
A: Because I do this to the (inaudible).
Q: Why are you putting the -- did you ever see anybody put a finger in somebody's peepee? I can't understand what you're saying?
A: No. A boy. ...
p. 84
Q: Did you ever see a peepee on any man?
A: No. I seen it on my brother and bum bum.
Q: Did you ever see it on a grown up man, though?
A: No. My brother's six.
Q: He's six. Yes.
A: I think he's seven -- I don't know.
Q: Do you want to finish looking at the pictures here?
A: (Inaudible).
Q: Now, I want you to tell me if you ever saw any of your teachers at Fells Acres without their clothes on?
A: They had their clothes on.
Q: They did? Did you ever hear of a room called the secret room?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear of the magic room?
A: No
Q: That's funny, because April told me about the magic room.
A: What was it?
Q: She told me about when you were in the room -- it's called the magic room?
A: (Inaudible).
Q: Did you ever see anybody that looked like that without their clothes on?
A: No.
Q: Like that?
A: No.
Q: How about like that?
A: No.
Q: Like that?
A: No.
Q: Like that?
A: Yes, my mommy.
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